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Thread: Hello, long time EU4 player, new Vic2 player here...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by El Jojo View Post
    High tariffs and taxes are not necessary for every nation at game start. Still most of the time as an unciv wishing to push education, admin and military conquests you'll need a lot more income than if you just sit there.
    Traditionnaly tariffs are an easier way for states to get income, especially since it's complicated to get an efficient tax system going on, that's why even if you push taxes to 100%, your effective tax rate is 20%. As the game goes taxes become a more versatile tool.
    The amount of RP you get only depends of your own reforms and you should target countries with high pop and provinces, Luang Prabang or Cambodia are terrible places to conquer for research.
    Panjab, Dai Nam and Korea should be almost enough to reach westernization by 1862. Korea should be invaded when you have the four military reforms granting RP, then it yields 14k-16k. Since Infamy can be a problem it's also possible to get the last thousands points from a japanese state. The southernmost one is great because you can cut it from the rest and thus not have to fight the whole japanese army.

    UK and Russia can be a problem but Spain is very easy to defeat since they don't have a land route, as long as you've switched to regulars you should be able to overwhelm their landing stacks. Spain is no tech powerhouse so they won't have a very advanced army and you'll have massive numbers on them.
    Are you sure that the amount of RP you get is solely based on your own reforms and how large your target is? Several places on the wiki states that its affected by the number of military reforms your target has. So just taking a state works and you don't have to use conquest to grab a whole country right? Would have been nice to know, as I didn't manage to grab Siam because they were too large for conquest until after the British chewed them up and sphered them.

    Anyways, I finished my run today. Learned a lot of things. Last 30 years or so was really fun and full of great wars this time around. Two things in particular I learned:

    1) Don't go crazy building lumber factories. Making China produce so much wood and tea seems to be a purposeful design to gimp their economy or something, forcing them to import most of what they need. Those lumber factories cost upwards of 2000 in subsidies to maintain in the end even though they were so profitable early game. I was forced to close most of them down when it became too much to sustain, leading to massive unemployment at the end because there was already no way I could upgrade factories fast enough to keep up with pop growth. Same deal with factories that use rubber. Even though I had a ton of rubber provinces, it just wasn't enough for all the factories that needed it. Really wish there was an option to replace a factory with an equal level factor in its place even if it costs a ton because constantly upgrading just wasn't fast enough.
    2) Plan political reforms and the party in power carefully, sometimes giving in to rebels. I tried to pick the liberal party every chance I could because I thought it was a modern day Anglo-American type thing before I learned how each ideology works today.

    Got a final few questions for you guys:

    1) Does this generic culture union thing I saw on the wiki work? Say I could sphere all of Korea and Japan and retake my cores from Russia and I would become the East Asian culture union and gain all those cultures as accepted? I know I saw some people talking about Germany accepting Ashkenazi so I really wanted to at least accept Nanfanren cause I felt bad.
    2) How do I get more clerks? I spent more than half the game with all NF on clerks and I don't think I even managed to get past 2%
    3) What's a good fun country to play where I don't need to worry about having a navy. I hate managing a navy for some reason which is why I didn't pick Japan. UK is obviously right out, and probably Spain, Belgium, and The Netherlands. I didn't research past 10 naval tech in any game. (Also, I think transports should carry more than 1 brigade per transport or something, cause watching the USA attempt to invade Europe was just sad, they almost because Communist in the aftermath, and France was left alone in a Great War with Germany and the UK, and ended up occupied for so many years she lost all industry.)

    EDIT - Oh and is there any particular reason why my alliances keep breaking? I noticed this happened several times because an longtime ally would suddenly offer me an alliance and then I check and like half of my alliances are gone for no reason. I know its not rebels enforcing demands or anything.
    Last edited by Kirikano; 23-02-2015 at 05:19.

  2. #22
    For RP conquest, it seems to be linked with
    1) Your amount of military reforms (the one with +RP conquest, obvisouly)
    2) The numbers of reforms of the other nation (or their literacy maybe)
    3) Difference in pop size. Conquering 1M or 10M will yields different RP points, and even more so if you have different POP size yourself. Can't say for sure though, but this is what the game has led me to believe.

    Lumber factories => This is true to pretty much anyone. Lumber factories aren't really profitable in the long term. I think only Russia can do with having more than 1 or 2.
    Rubber => Rubber is a bottleneck resource, meaning there'll never be enough. Sphere nations that produce them, and even with all the Rubber of the world, you'll probably need more (especially as China).

    China is NOT the cultural union of East Asian cultures (in fact, there is none), so you can't get Japanese and such as accepted, nor they will petition to be annexed.

    Clerks : if you don't manage to get a lot, it's probably because they prefer the other middle class jobs which maybe are paid too high.

    Prussia is a good land country. Homogenous pop with high literacy, a few wars already planned, formation of the NGF and the German Empire, etc. You'll be involved in pretty much every game mechanics, so it's good. You won't need a navy unless you want colonies (colonies are always good, but if you don't want navy, you can skip them).
    France is nice too, though you'll need to make overseas colonies and stuff.
    Russia is a land country, though you have a very low starting literacy. Can be fun until you're drowned in Rebels.

  3. #23
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    PanH is wrong about RPs. The only thing about your target that RP conquest cares about is their number of provinces. Do some testing and you'll see that it works out, no matter what the wiki says.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    PanH is wrong about RPs. The only thing about your target that RP conquest cares about is their number of provinces. Do some testing and you'll see that it works out, no matter what the wiki says.
    Just did the test for you.
    China conquers Korea with only Imported Weapons reform (+25% rp when conquering) : it gets 10900 rpoints.
    It has +2% from plurality
    So that's 10680 base plus plurality bonus.

    Japan conquers Korea with Imported Weapons reform (+25% rp when conquering) and Land Reform (irrelevant) : 25000 rpoints (or maybe more).
    +32% rpoints from Meiji Reform and plurality
    So that would be (if we imagine it's exactly 25k, which we don't know for sure) : 18900 base rpoints.

    Both were done with justifications as soon as the game start, with Korea having enacted NO reforms. Province number is not the only important thing, since conquering a province of China or conquering a lightly populated OPM doesn't grant the same rpoints, and as seen, the base points aren't the same.

  5. #25
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    Pan, your test and your conclusions don't follow. Try using the same country (say China) and conquer two different targets. Conquering a populous Asian state or some backwater Arab one DOES give the same RPs, as long as the number of provinces is the same.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Pan, your test and your conclusions don't follow. Try using the same country (say China) and conquer two different targets. Conquering a populous Asian state or some backwater Arab one DOES give the same RPs, as long as the number of provinces is the same.
    You're right. More population isn't equal more rpoints. But provinces size still isn't it.
    As Japan, I conquered Yemen (a 8 provinces region with 100k POP) and it gave me 9750. Conquering Zheijiang (8 provinces chinese region with 2.5M POP) gave me 9200.

    Bedouin pop is more literate than Chinese one (not by that much) though, so that could be one of the reasons.
    Even then, I am unsure of why Japan is able to get so much more rp by conquering Korea than China is when doing it. Province size can't be the only factor, even if it was relative to the size of the country you're playing.

  7. #27
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    The most decisive point in westernizing China (or India, if it rebels or gets released) is huge army. All westernization in any countries of this scale has to be done at sword point. Rebels will come no matter how much you can try to prevent them. It is most beneficial to invest in a military reform and build some real infantry units, they help a lot against rebels. After that, you can slowly proceed to reform the economy.

    I am not sure about how the 'gain RP by conquest' thing works, since I never conquer anybody until I westernize, or sometimes I play a simply weak nation like Sokoto that actually cannot conquer anyone/has no one around to conquer. So I cannot offer help in this part.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanH View Post
    You're right. More population isn't equal more rpoints. But provinces size still isn't it.
    As Japan, I conquered Yemen (a 8 provinces region with 100k POP) and it gave me 9750. Conquering Zheijiang (8 provinces chinese region with 2.5M POP) gave me 9200.

    Bedouin pop is more literate than Chinese one (not by that much) though, so that could be one of the reasons.
    Even then, I am unsure of why Japan is able to get so much more rp by conquering Korea than China is when doing it. Province size can't be the only factor, even if it was relative to the size of the country you're playing.
    The populous states change your country's literacy, and thus RP per turn. I've seen a formula someone derived on reddit, and your country's research rate factors into it. It was I believe:

    RESEARCH_POINTS_ON_CONQUER_MULT * (0.75 + Research Points on Conquest bonus) * no. of provinces conquered * your nation's daily research points after conquest = Awarded points

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirikano View Post

    Got a final few questions for you guys:

    1) Does this generic culture union thing I saw on the wiki work? Say I could sphere all of Korea and Japan and retake my cores from Russia and I would become the East Asian culture union and gain all those cultures as accepted? I know I saw some people talking about Germany accepting Ashkenazi so I really wanted to at least accept Nanfanren cause I felt bad.
    2) How do I get more clerks? I spent more than half the game with all NF on clerks and I don't think I even managed to get past 2%
    3) What's a good fun country to play where I don't need to worry about having a navy. I hate managing a navy for some reason which is why I didn't pick Japan. UK is obviously right out, and probably Spain, Belgium, and The Netherlands. I didn't research past 10 naval tech in any game. (Also, I think transports should carry more than 1 brigade per transport or something, cause watching the USA attempt to invade Europe was just sad, they almost because Communist in the aftermath, and France was left alone in a Great War with Germany and the UK, and ended up occupied for so many years she lost all industry.)

    EDIT - Oh and is there any particular reason why my alliances keep breaking? I noticed this happened several times because an longtime ally would suddenly offer me an alliance and then I check and like half of my alliances are gone for no reason. I know its not rebels enforcing demands or anything.
    about the clerk, they mainly come from your craftsmen. first, improve your craftsmen's literacy and keep them well fed (this decreases demotion chance and thus increases relative promotion chance) to make them promote faster. Second, when they do promote, you want to make sure they will be promoted to clerks not clergy/artisan/bureaucrats. You can lower the education and administration spending to the point that craftsmen have 0% chance to be promoted to them (usually 40-50% depends on how many percent clergy/bureaucrats are already in that county, check the pop tab for detailed info), the often neglected part is artisan. How likely is a craftsman to be promoted to a artisan depends on a) how many % soldiers/clergy are in that county, and b) their literacy, the more soldiers/clergies you have, your craftsmen will more likely be promoted to a artisan, the higher their literacy is, the less likely they will become a artisan.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirikano View Post
    The high tarriffs and taxes would increase militancy though, which I can't afford if I get the western influences event, so I kept taxes and tarrifs low. Anyways, even if all nations need to raise taxes and tarrifs to the max at game start, I feel like thats just kinda bad balancing of the initial game state.
    And conquering is exactly what I did, but you overestimate how many points you get from conquering a civ with low westernization progress. Korea had 20% progress when I conquered her and I had 2 military reforms and only got 10k. I also conquered Bukhara, Afganistan, Khiva, Kokland, Burma, Dai Nam, Cambodia, Lan whatever its called, and whatever nation south of Afghanistan is. It took all that to westernize in 1862. Wanted to target Persia and Punjab and Siam but they all got sphered too quickly. Even Korea was luck after somebody unsphered them from Spain.
    Also, Russia and GB are guaranteed to declare containment wars if you pass 25 infamy. It happened every time I went over 25 before westernization. Russia even regular wars on me about 50% of the time that I didn't improve relations above 100. Even in games where I kept the military sliders all the way up and didn't disband any brigades.
    Bad balancing is extremely subjective. Considering that in real life tax efficiency during the era was pretty poor(as is well shown in-game) and that most major countries did invoke a lot of tariffs, I don't think Vicky 2 is that far off from real life in that regard. Of course your goals in the game are much different than those in real life, for example in real life a lot of countries couldn't care less about their population's literacy level whereas in game you must care because it gives more research points. So it's these extra considerations that shift the scales here.

    As for westernizing, in my own China campaign(you can see its end in the post your HoD empire thread) I Westernized somewhere in the 1850s by conquering Korea than 1 state from Siam(to allow me to fully annex them once I Westernize and get Nationalism and Imperialism as it reduces their province size from 5 to 4 which is the cap for Establish Protectorate) and either Dai Nam or Cambodia, forgot which one I got first. These along with a heavy focus on literacy(full education scaling as well as clergy focus on most populous region to 2% than switching to the next) got me Westernized before 1860 and didn't require me to go over the infamy limit, though admittedly I did get lucky that my Korean CB only costed me like 11 infamy or so, half of the potential 22 you can get. In order to optimize the process you want to wait until you get the first reform than declare on Siam for the single province, than use the RP from that to get the 2nd reform than go after Korea. Than it's a matter of waiting for infamy to burn down, so obviously if you got caught instantly on both occasions than you're screwed if you want to stay below the limit. Regardless of how lucky/unlucky you got wait for enough infamy to burn down than go after Dai Nam or Burma if the UK is still not friendly with them, otherwise the UK will intervene defeating the point of staying below the limit and making it a pain in the rear, yet still very much winnable.

    Also, you're underestimating the power of the Chinese army. Once you get the first reform, pick the one that lets you build infantry. Than max out your entire army with infantry units, than slowly dismiss irregulars to make more infantry. Keep the cavalry for now as you won't be able to get better cavalry units until after Westernization, and make sure to have like 2-4 cavalry units with each stack of infantry for the recon and flanking. When you have a maxed out army with a lot of infantry the AI will be very reluctant to declare war on you, even containment war. So if you want to completely disregard infamy make sure to have a maxed out army and than go on a conquering spree. Sure, sometimes the AI will declare containment wars after all, the formula of when the AI chooses to use CBs is very complex and seemingly random, but with a military score way above anyone else the AI will be very reluctant to declare war despite having the free containment CB. Still, you should be prepared for war if they AI does decide to declare, but these wars aren't too hard to white peace out of eventually, and it's not like you're losing anything just by being at war, even if you get occupied occasionally since you don't yet have factories. Once you beat back the first few containment wars though(assuming they happen) you'll likely have a long period of peace afterwards on the containment front, so you can continue conquering whoever you want with no downside. As soon as you Westernize make sure to catch up on research and education(your top priority) than get some naval techs as you'll want to start building up your ports to inflate your military score even further by also investing in your navy to further deter potential containment wars and to allow you to take the fight to the Europeans/USA. Foregoing the infamy limit will let you Westernize even faster as nothing stops you from declaring war on some Indochina pushover while the UK/Russia is fighting you, your army should be big enough to handle both fronts with ease.

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