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Thread: Hello, long time EU4 player, new Vic2 player here...

  1. #1

    Hello, long time EU4 player, new Vic2 player here...

    I just started playing Vic 2 and the tutorial was pretty much useless, so I decided to get my feet wet in a real game and choose China. First game went very smoothly, I took only economic reforms and didn't raise taxes or max out tarrifs, and slowly increased spending on clergy as my economy improved. But westernization took long enough that by the end of the game, I only managed to research about 50% of all techs excluding industry which I actually finished 30/30. I briefly managed to get to #1 though before accidentally conceding in a great war that I didn't want to fight (who knew white peace in that situation wasn't a thing).

    So now I decided to try China again, but westernize as quickly as possible by taking 1 or 2 military reforms and conquer stuff. Raised relations with Russia above 100 to stop them from stomping me at game start, raised taxes on the rich and poor, raised spending on clergy to 100%, tarrifs as high as possible so I don't go bankrupt. Except every attempt I've done after the first has had the Western influences event fire that gives +20% research but also increases militancy every month. So my population inevitably increases in militancy and consciousness from constantly firing events after that first event, and eventually, I get to about 3.5 militancy and MILLIONS of reactionaries rise up and overwhelm my substates armies.

    So how do I westernize as quickly as possible as China when the western influences event fires?

  2. #2
    Exiled Cartographer Mikalos's Avatar
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    you play a country besides china, thats how. Learn how ot westernize with say, persia or Japan, save china for when you have a better grasp of the game.

    If you want to actually learn how to play the game well - Belgium, spain or sweden. France if you want a power i guess, avoid prussia and austria as learning to play the game and dealing with SoI-double fronts/50 million ethnicity wanting Independence isn't a good way.

    but really, if your set on learning the game from the barbarians, use japan, it's an easier experience than china.

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    oh and since you're a longtime Eu4 player: This isn't a map painter, don't try to play it like it is. the only thing that should be spreading across the map is your SoI color.
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  3. #3
    Well, I think you are doing well. You'll have to do some serious reactionary stomping to get westernization that quickly, but I believe your way to get the fastest possible westernization is alright. Maybe start off with Persia or Japan as Mikalos said is an easier westernizing experience, but from your description of what's happening I believe you are ok with any country.


    Since you are taxing and tariffing the shit out of your poor, their militancy will rise even faster when they cannot afford their life needs. I suppose you already experienced the difference first hand by your descriptions. Keep in mind, your tax efficiency may be low but you are still taking money off of peasants who overproduce stuff already. And when you set tariffs high, you are making it hell when you have to import stuff to satisfy their needs. That may make Artisan's life hell aswell, so even if you don't tax them, they won't be able to feed themselves. The starving artisans are pretty much a staple POP type in any Victoria game.
    So, if you need manufactured goods, you are depending on a bunch of useless artisans that you are burdening further with high import costs. The events are kind of inevitable, so the only way to manage your militancy is through your taxes and tariffs. But I understand that keeping a mighty army may be necessary for your chosen path of westernization. But keep these things in mind.

    To say the truth, I think I only went for westernization game once, and with Japan, long ago. Damn.

    EDIT:

    Oh, and Mikalos was quite the harsh individual there and I'm not arguing about that stance. But Victoria is indeed a diferent beast from EU. I believe you already know that though.
    "Nothing has ever come from the south. The axis of history begins in Moscow, goes to Bonn, crosses over to Washington and then goes on to Tokyo. What occurs in the southern world is not important. It is not worth the time."

    - Henry Kissinger to the Chilean minister of foreign affairs Gabriel Valdés, 1969

  4. #4
    You don't seem to be doing anything spectacularly wrong. Fast westernization is supposed to grow discontent and rebellions so big they should be called civil war.
    Still, maybe there's millions of rebels but you should have a strong army to contain them, military reforms improve your army while rebels stay the same. Switching to infantry instead of irregulars is a huge boost (Imported weapons reform). Remember that there's no point invading before you get at least one of the military reforms granting Research points.
    Having massive militancy when you westernize can be useful to enact social reforms right after westernizing.

    If the rebels overwhelm one of your puppet states that's good news no ? Now you can conquer them since you have cores... I'm wondering if China can start with a revolution releasing the substates and then reconquering them for research points.

  5. #5
    Yes I understand Vic2 isn't the map painter that EU4 is. But conquering another nation gives more than 10k research points a pop after the first military reform and I was managing my infamy. Guess I just have to take this a bit more slowly at the start then. Its just kind of sad that at game start China is at -760 budget so something has to give.

    Can I decrease administrative budget safely then? I already deleted 70% of the army at game start but I want to keep some around just in case.

    Would cheesing the game by making sure I'm at war so rebels can't enforce demands work?

    How do I rid myself of a satellite state? I wanted to own Tibet directly cause that blue in the middle of my empire is ugly. If I release a Chinese nation, do they return to my control by event like I hear works with Germany?

    Also how exactly does conquest research work? I have to attack a nation that has as least one reform right? Do I have to conquer them straight up or will just taking 1 state work?

    @el JoJo - not my substates being overwhelmed, my rebels are overwhelming me and my substates. Once they start spawning, about 250k spawn every month or so.

    Edit - and is it ever possible to justify a war without taking infamy? I mean why does it say you have a chance to get x amount of infamy if your gonna get discovered and take the infamy hit anyways? I heard low relations with a neighbor can give a infamy free cb. How do you add wargoals during a war anyways? When I start a war with the soviets for 1 state, I can't seem to add wargoals because I can't justify a war while at war and adding a wargoal just gives me a blank list. But when Russia jumps me at game start their demands go from 1 state to 4 and all they take is 14 infamy? Do I not even get informed if someone was caught justifying a war on me? Or did they just not get caught?
    Last edited by Kirikano; 21-02-2015 at 02:28.

  6. #6
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    China is actually very strong economically, and shouldn't be running a deficit no matter what you do. Max out your admin and education sliders and leave them there for the rest of the game. Early game you're going to want max taxes on everything and max tariffs, at least until your tariff efficiency goes up. You can lower military spending since you'll always have more soldiers than you know what to do with. Though China is a bit of an exception when it comes to playable countries, so you shouldn't assume what works for it will work for others.

    Other things: Rebels can enforce demands on you quite fine even if you're at war. The only way to get rid of puppets is to have either them or you get broken by rebels. Conquest RP is based on your own conquest research bonus multiplied by the number of provinces you conquer.

  7. #7
    Strong economically? When I load up China at game start, Im losing 760 € per day. Max tariffs barely cover that at start.

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    Almost every country starts with a deficit, even advanced ones like Prussia. Fixing up your budget sliders should be the first thing you do when starting a new game. If you really want to see economic trouble you need to play weak states with less than 0.5 mill or so pops. Now those are economic nightmares.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Almost every country starts with a deficit, even advanced ones like Prussia. Fixing up your budget sliders should be the first thing you do when starting a new game. If you really want to see economic trouble you need to play weak states with less than 0.5 mill or so pops. Now those are economic nightmares.
    There is literally nothing I can do to properly balance the budget unless, unless massive taxes and tarrifs counts, or setting education to 0 or administration and military to 0 counts.

    Also, I've figured out that its basically impossible to actually westernize if I get the western influences event and accept it. Even with 0 taxes and no tariffs, I will still eventually get to about 2 militancy in my population thanks to that event giving +.1 everywhere, and then boom, million rebels overwhelming me and substates.

  10. #10
    Is this game really buggy? I just started another attempt where the Western Influences event didn't fire, and so when I declared my first war on Panjab, none of their allies joined the war and my own substates and satellites didn't attack. When I took control of their armies, I found that I couldn't move them into Panjab territory at all, even though the game didn't say it was neutral territory.

  11. #11
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    Just disband some regiments if you are losing money. Who will invade China anyway?
    You don't need many hundreds of divisions.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Just disband some regiments if you are losing money. Who will invade China anyway?
    You don't need many hundreds of divisions.
    Soldiers and Officers still get paid though, unless I actually turn military spending down. All I do is save 7 monies because I don't have to pay for ammunition food wool and small arms anymore. I have to keep some around though, or I risk a rebel controlling my capital just long enough to enforce demands.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirikano View Post
    There is literally nothing I can do to properly balance the budget unless, unless massive taxes and tarrifs counts, or setting education to 0 or administration and military to 0 counts.


    Here you go, a balanced Chinese budget 1 month after game start with maxed education and admin spending. Effective tariffs are at 30%, and taxation at 20%. Unless you start as an industrialized power, there's no reason not to max out your taxes in the early game (especially if you're an unciv). You can get an even bigger surplus if you cut the national stockpile during peacetime.

    If you're finding this all too hard, then I'd really recommend as the others say and try someone besides China. It's not a good beginner country.

  14. #14
    Thanks but I said it couldn't be done without maxing out taxes and raising tarrifs or cutting military spending. It was just generating a lot of militancy and causing the whole nation to be life needs partially fulfilled.

    Anyways, I figured out how to do it, westernized in 1862. Very cheezy though, but I bet the UK isn't complaining since they got like 200 prestige out of it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirikano View Post
    Thanks but I said it couldn't be done without maxing out taxes and raising tarrifs or cutting military spending. It was just generating a lot of militancy and causing the whole nation to be life needs partially fulfilled.

    Anyways, I figured out how to do it, westernized in 1862. Very cheezy though, but I bet the UK isn't complaining since they got like 200 prestige out of it.
    Every nation should max taxes and raise tariffs as needed at the beginning, but most nations and especially China shouldn't need to stay in this state for long. Heck, during peace time if you set your army spending to like 10-20% you shouldn't need too many tariffs to stabilize your budget. Also, Westernizing by 1862 shouldn't be cheesy at all, in fact it's quite slow. Take advantage of HoD's research gain from conquest mechanic(for Westernization only) to speed up Westernization, you have no shortage of invasion targets. Korea, Dai Nam, Siam, etc are all ripe for the taking. You don't even need to use your own soldiers for that as your puppets' armies are more than enough on their own. Yes, all of them will require the Conquest CB rather than Protectorate since you're unciv yourself so the max infamy is 22, which means that you can only get 1 before going over the infamy limit unless you get incredibly lucky with getting discovered very late or not at all. With that said, as China you can easily afford to ignore the infamy limit as nobody(not even the UK) will dare attack you if you keep your army in tact. Even if the UK/Russia do attack you, it's easy to white peace them out. Oh and by the way, annexing Korea maxes out your research(25k points) with 1 reform that increases research gain from conquest. So basically wait until you get the first reform, pick the 1 that lets you train infantry, than annex Korea. Than get rid of your irregulars and replace them with infantry(if you haven't done so already), keep the cavalry until you Westernize and get Dragoons or Hussars. Than either wait out the rest of the reforms or conquer another nation, typically going over the infamy limit, which as mentioned above shouldn't really be a problem, especially if you converted all your irregulars to infantry.

  16. #16
    Yeah, China isn't really a great country to play. It's weak at first, and after you civilize it's micromanagement hell. Pray you never have to play a communist China. It's not really interesting either, since after westernizing, nobody can stop you.
    Prussia is an easy nation to learn GP stuff, and Japan is the best unciv (and one of the best country to play too).

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Just disband some regiments if you are losing money. Who will invade China anyway?
    You don't need many hundreds of divisions.
    Hm, everyone ? That's the first thing I do as Japan (yes, even when unciv), and it's great to do it as any country. Sure the AI won't do it early, but heh, it's not taking advantage of it.

    As for infamy : Yes you can justify cb without infamy, but it's rare, and it nearly never happens to unciv. Unciv have a malus to being discovered, but it's faster. Civ against unciv cb is free most of the time once you get some State & Government techs.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Owl Raider View Post
    Every nation should max taxes and raise tariffs as needed at the beginning, but most nations and especially China shouldn't need to stay in this state for long. Heck, during peace time if you set your army spending to like 10-20% you shouldn't need too many tariffs to stabilize your budget. Also, Westernizing by 1862 shouldn't be cheesy at all, in fact it's quite slow. Take advantage of HoD's research gain from conquest mechanic(for Westernization only) to speed up Westernization, you have no shortage of invasion targets. Korea, Dai Nam, Siam, etc are all ripe for the taking. You don't even need to use your own soldiers for that as your puppets' armies are more than enough on their own. Yes, all of them will require the Conquest CB rather than Protectorate since you're unciv yourself so the max infamy is 22, which means that you can only get 1 before going over the infamy limit unless you get incredibly lucky with getting discovered very late or not at all. With that said, as China you can easily afford to ignore the infamy limit as nobody(not even the UK) will dare attack you if you keep your army in tact. Even if the UK/Russia do attack you, it's easy to white peace them out. Oh and by the way, annexing Korea maxes out your research(25k points) with 1 reform that increases research gain from conquest. So basically wait until you get the first reform, pick the 1 that lets you train infantry, than annex Korea. Than get rid of your irregulars and replace them with infantry(if you haven't done so already), keep the cavalry until you Westernize and get Dragoons or Hussars. Than either wait out the rest of the reforms or conquer another nation, typically going over the infamy limit, which as mentioned above shouldn't really be a problem, especially if you converted all your irregulars to infantry.
    The high tarriffs and taxes would increase militancy though, which I can't afford if I get the western influences event, so I kept taxes and tarrifs low. Anyways, even if all nations need to raise taxes and tarrifs to the max at game start, I feel like thats just kinda bad balancing of the initial game state.
    And conquering is exactly what I did, but you overestimate how many points you get from conquering a civ with low westernization progress. Korea had 20% progress when I conquered her and I had 2 military reforms and only got 10k. I also conquered Bukhara, Afganistan, Khiva, Kokland, Burma, Dai Nam, Cambodia, Lan whatever its called, and whatever nation south of Afghanistan is. It took all that to westernize in 1862. Wanted to target Persia and Punjab and Siam but they all got sphered too quickly. Even Korea was luck after somebody unsphered them from Spain.
    Also, Russia and GB are guaranteed to declare containment wars if you pass 25 infamy. It happened every time I went over 25 before westernization. Russia even regular wars on me about 50% of the time that I didn't improve relations above 100. Even in games where I kept the military sliders all the way up and didn't disband any brigades.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirikano View Post
    The high tarriffs and taxes would increase militancy though,
    Okay, let me clear up some misconceptions: no it won't. Pop militancy is generally affected very little by your taxation, and is more related to large trends which you have very little control over. The only reliable ways players can increase militancy economically is by events or by shutting down factories, leading to unemployment.

    China is an especially bad case of this, as no matter how rich your pops get, there are literally not enough goods in the world market to feed and clothe them all. The only way to solve this is by increasing RGO output through techs, so instead of keeping taxes low it's better to max it out and spend the money on education, making westernization and teching faster.

    As for infamy, you want to stay below 25 until you're strong enough to defeat the entire world at the same time. Only then the AI will be too scared to declare on you. Ignoring infamy early is an entirely valid strategy, though, and will actually make your teching even faster because of the infamy -> consciousness -> plurality loop. Both Russia and UK will declare war on you, but UK is actually not that hard to beat down. Russia is possible to defeat as unvic China (I've done it) but it's not fun, so it's the sole reason I don't recommend it. Technically speaking, though, it's the optimal strategy for China.

  19. #19
    Yeah, tariffs and taxes do not increase militancy directly. And the indirect effect depends also on other factors. Hell, sometimes, taxing more money than you need is a way to keep your pop happy.
    Tarriffs are mostly for industry. They won't change much for an unciv, so at 100%, they're fine.

  20. #20
    High tariffs and taxes are not necessary for every nation at game start. Still most of the time as an unciv wishing to push education, admin and military conquests you'll need a lot more income than if you just sit there.
    Traditionnaly tariffs are an easier way for states to get income, especially since it's complicated to get an efficient tax system going on, that's why even if you push taxes to 100%, your effective tax rate is 20%. As the game goes taxes become a more versatile tool.
    The amount of RP you get only depends of your own reforms and you should target countries with high pop and provinces, Luang Prabang or Cambodia are terrible places to conquer for research.
    Panjab, Dai Nam and Korea should be almost enough to reach westernization by 1862. Korea should be invaded when you have the four military reforms granting RP, then it yields 14k-16k. Since Infamy can be a problem it's also possible to get the last thousands points from a japanese state. The southernmost one is great because you can cut it from the rest and thus not have to fight the whole japanese army.

    UK and Russia can be a problem but Spain is very easy to defeat since they don't have a land route, as long as you've switched to regulars you should be able to overwhelm their landing stacks. Spain is no tech powerhouse so they won't have a very advanced army and you'll have massive numbers on them.

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